Ep178: Buddhist Meditation, Hypnosis, & Dzogchen - Dr Ian Wickramasekera & Julia Shannon
A dialogue between Dr Ian Wickramasekera, Bön Buddhist practitioner and professor at Naropa University, and Julia Shannon, trainee clinical psychotherapist and researcher.
Available on Youtube, iTunes, SoundCloud & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
In this episode I host a dialogue between:
Dr Ian Wickramasekera, Bön Buddhist practitioner and associate professor of Mindfulness Based Transpersonal Counselling at Naropa University.
Julia Shannon who is completing a master's degree in clinical mental health counselling, and a course in Sowa Rigpa Counselling, in which she is researching the intersection of hypnosis, Buddhist meditation, and mental health.
In the first part of this interview, Dr Ian discusses his current thinking on what the traditions of Dzogchen and Western hypnosis can learn from each other, challenges Herbert Benson’s relaxation response theory of meditation, and questions dualistic frameworks in science and experimental psychology.
Then, Dr Ian and Julia dialogue about the prevalence of mental illness and regressive coping in Buddhist meditators, the personality types of religious mystics, and Julia’s own experience using hypnosis to cure her phone addiction
Dr Ian and Julia also consider the implications of teaching advanced Buddhist meditation methods in a clinical setting, including ethical issues and concerns about violating sacred vows, and they discuss their experiences of personal identity and professional life as biracial adults in America.
Topics include:
00:00 - Intro
01:26 - Dzogchen and hypnosis
05:37 - Going beyond dualism in science
06:19 - Clinical psychology and the crisis in materialism
09:37 - Is suffering linked to serotonin?
20:01 - Dzogchen philosophy in clinical hypnosis
22:14 - Invalidating Herbert Benson’s relaxation response theory of meditation
29:08 - What really brings cessation of suffering
30:14 - Aestheticism is needed in science
32:05 - Specific Dzogchen practices and hypnotic hallucinations
36:31 - A daily practice of hypnosis
40:01 - What science can offer Dzogchen
46:45 - Julia’s background
49:05 - Overcoming phone addiction via hypnosis
52:08 - Hypnotic trance vs meditative states
53:46 - Stigmata of hypnosis and meditation
57:56 - High hypnotisable people and the prevalence to mystical experience
01:01:10 - Ronald J. Pekal’s Phenomenology of Consciousness Inventory (PCI)
01:03:15 - Myth of meditation brain states such as alpha
01:07:23 - Bringing Buddhist practice into clinical practice
01:08:53 - Mental illness in religious practitioners
01:10:44 - Repressive coping in tummo meditators
01:23:02 - Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and finding one’s innate experience
01:25:06 - Presenting completion stage practices in a secular context
01:29:20 - Trekchod and togyal vs post-hypnotic suggestion
01:31:23 - Which Buddhist practices Dr Ian gives to his patients
01:33:32 - Experimental vs clinical psychology
01:34:41 - Does teaching Buddhist practice to non-Buddhists break Samaya?
01:38:03 - Hypnotising Dzogchen practitioners
01:39:49 - Counselling those who are dissatisfied with their experience of Buddhism
01:41:33 - Nervousness about teaching Dzogchen and Vajrayana
01:43:02 - The importance of devotion
01:45:08 - Training clinicians and counsellors
01:50:38 - Dr Ian asks Julia about her experience being hypnotised
01:54:14 - Catharsis, clinging, and the battle of addiction
01:56:19 - Executive ego and skepticism
01:57:19 - Pointing out instructions and polypsychic therapy
02:01:32 - Rapid behaviour change and eschatological pressure
02:03:15 - Race, empathy, and therapeutic efficacy
02:10:33 - Integrating dualistic racial identities
02:12:08 - Identity dimensions of the therapist
02:16:22 - Chogyam Trungpa and reconciling racial identity
02:24:23 - Role-taking theory and hallucinated intensity
02:29:26 - Myths of hypnosis and the role of expectancy
Previous episodes with Dr Ian Wickramasekera:
To find our more about Dr Ian Wickramasekera, visit:
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James